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Clone motors

Discussion forum for 4-Cycle classes.

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Re: Clone motors

Postby George Kraus » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:50 am

So, Mike, You'll come and race Yamaha's with us now. Yamaha Heavy needs 9 more racers to "make" for the Summer Series. See ya Saturday !!!
Doctor say that I can go drive, check the bloodpressure and LET'S SEE.

Whoot!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Clone motors

Postby Bob Preston » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:04 pm

Well now this is turning out to be a great topic and like most interesting topics it is expanding to other more important issues. Do you really think that $350 on the front end will make the difference between this class and the pretty much ignored animal package? If one is resourceful one can gain entry into the sport with an older kart/motor package that can be had from our own classifieds section.
So this makes me think…. and yeah, I know this can be dangerous.
I am interested in racing in the biggest Yamaha class as it is no fun for me to ride around the track with two other karts. Heck, I can practice anytime. Who doesn’t want to go to the fence during an eight or ten kart Jr super sportsman race and see three or four close battles. And while every one of those drivers want to be up front, they are still very happy just having someone to compete with and it’s the same for me.
So from my point of view (and what Mike stated above about Rotax) each new engine package/class has the potential of subtracting competitors from other classes as well as attracting new people to the track. This dilutes the competition and extends our race program while only gaining a few people. Is it worth it? Maybe we need another strategy to gain members?
To wrap up my thoughts, I think we may then define our racers in two general categories, firstly there is the serious racer that wants to compete/win at all available cost (finance, time & effort). Every serious racer has their threshold for these resources although they will strive to reach their threshold (kind of like terminators “that’s what they do, they do not stop until they reach their objective”). Then you have the casual racer who enjoys competing/winning but will occasionally practice and could spend more time, money and effort although is not compelled to. I think that as a club we should understand our member’s needs & wants and cater our club events classes & track availability to this.
So I think Mike J is on to something about the perpetual topic although it may not be about good old days or cheap engines, it’s more about the club realizing that they have to cater to two basic racer groups and not let the petty politics of who will not race with who or the fantasy of a throw away motor dictate when setting up these classes.
Actually the club does have a third group of non racers that are occasional track users that simply enjoy getting in some laps and we should also not lose sight of them.
What can we do about it? Boy I don’t know, maybe promote the heck out of the classes we do have established that have a solid core group and force every new class to go the provisional route? This way, the great combinations will build momentum and emerge on top. It’s OK to be known for something like, "NTK is Yamaha country" or "Rotax friendly" or whatever I think that’s part of having a great product is that you know what to expect. Obviously this is a complex issue or else it would have been worked out long ago.
I’ll stop thinking now and go back to terminating…well the only thing I have terminated lately is clutches & tires….
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Re: Clone motors

Postby Michael Johnson » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:53 pm

Hi Gang,

It is great to see people looking 'outside the box' for options on how to improve the sport.

While I think there are many options to power a kart (clone, honda 4-stroke, jet turbine, human powered (I will run behind kart pushing and make racey noises - which is the cheapest options by far, however rule enforcement is questionable)). Buying more/different stuff does not change the racers excitement to come out and race.

I would take a wild guess and say there are already 20-50 people who own Yamaha 100cc engines in Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex. Rather than telling them to get out their cheque books maybe if someone just asked them to come race they would.

It would be great to see the drivers in our 5 senior Yamaha classes put their own agendas aside for a minute and pick a fair weight, put on a 4-hole can (lower top RPM for better engine life), specify a long lasting or low engagement clutch and just race.

Cheers

Michael

PS: There will be 8+ shifter karts this Saturday so bring your popcorn. Betting begins at 4pm in the bookies office.... I mean registration building.
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Re: Clone motors

Postby Shae Nault » Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:30 am

ok lets focus on the fY class again then....im serious though i dont want to start a never ending thread on this subject just a never ending race class and this isnt a "squeek" Mike. :)
Shae
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Re: Clone motors

Postby Charles Pou » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:01 am

For what its worth, I bought a Briggs Animal and plan to come out from time to time to race.

I agree about direct drive 2 cycle being the best. I ran a TKM direct drive in brackets and it was loads of fun and low $'s. Unfortunately, I am too old to get it going anymore so need something easier.

I can run a Briggs Animal oval dirt racing, road racing and asphalt sprint so looked like a good option for me.

I think clones are OK, but IMO after you add up all the costs to race (clutch, pipe, motor mount, kart, tires, other expenses, etc, etc) the total difference in price comparing a clone to Briggs Animal is not significant.

IMO for a little more, you get a lot more with an Animal. If a clone works better for you, get a clone and we can race in brackets. :-)
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Re: Clone motors

Postby Yaani-Mai Gaddy » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:55 pm

Created a 4-Cycle forum & moved thread.
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Re: Clone motors

Postby Yaani-Mai Gaddy » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:01 pm

Well, John Ray told me Harbor Freight had a coupon in Sunday's newspaper. The 6.5HP Honda clone normally sells for $160 is on sale for $99. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=66014 I bought one & a 2 yr extended warranty for $19.99. I told them I was going to use it for racing & they told me if anything goes wrong with it in 2 years they will replace it no questions asked. I have ordered some parts kits & driver gears to experiment with.

This class is really taking off in Katy. They just started it & had 9 entries in their last race. A lot of the Dads found old chassis to put the engine on & the Moms have started racing too. It is taking off in other parts of the country too. It sounds like a great entry level class.

Not sure about rules yet but this is what Katy is doing & it has some links to videos on how to get the engine ready to race (remove governor & oil sensor). I talked to some people & heard that it has about 9HP after it is race ready. The GCKI forums http://www.racekarts.com/forum/ has a lot of information on them as they are already racing them down there.

I am going to do some testing with it & will let you know how it goes. But it looks like it has great potential to be a very affordable entry level class that could bring a lot of new racers out to NTK.

I have extra coupons that expire 12/31/09. Call me if you want me to send you one or look for them in Sunday's paper.

Brackets with the Animal class would be fun too.

See you at the track in your Chonda John Ray!
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Re: Clone motors

Postby David Munden » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:43 pm

You guys are amazing! First as George stated, any racer is going to be tempted to "look" inside and who has a tech sheet for these clone engines. I haven't seen one. This will make policing the class almost impossible. I know if my engine builder pulls one apart, it'll be better when he puts it back together. I for one hate to see anything else weakening the American dollar. Chinese imports are not the answer. Even if you could police the tech, which I don't think you can, A low horsepower, supposedly equal engine class will be dominated by the person with the latest greatest chassis, newest tires and best chassis tuner. This has been proven time and time again. You already have the perfect structure and place for everyone to race; pipe, FY, can, lite, heavy, overweight, out of date, open motor, brand new chassis, 20 year old chassis, ill handling - hand - me - down chassis, etc...THE BRACKETS 1-6. You can race anything and everything that's safe. Your class (bracket) is determined by your lap time not your wallet. I promise you can run your briggs in a well handling kart and compete against an ill handling Yamaha pipe. This structure works great for any racer willing to put egos aside and race for fun. A beginner can start in bracket 6 and as their tuning and driving skills improve so will their lap times. As the lap times improve the driver will progress up into the higher brackets. As long as you are placing newbies in with veterans drivers, it will be hard to retain racers. No one wants to go to work and tell their buddies they got lapped at the track. Everyone can be competitive with the equipement they already have. This will work if given a fair shake. One other thing, you cannot have all six brackets on the track at one time, I would suggest, 5&6 race together, 3&4 together and 1&2 together unless one of the classes get big enough for it's own track time. No motor is outdated. Yamaha, HPV, K71, K88, briggs flathead, animal, bring out the twins, on and on!
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Re: Clone motors

Postby Yaani-Mai Gaddy » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:20 pm

A low horsepower, supposedly equal engine class will be dominated by the person with the latest greatest chassis, newest tires and best chassis tuner.


David, I agree with you & the same can be said for any class. I doubt someone who only pays $100 for an engine will be buying lots of new tyres or will hire the best chassis tuner though.

I wouldn't mind racing this engine in brackets. If there are enough of them then they will have their own class.

I have already mailed 2 coupons to people that are buying this engine.

Here are some rules that Katy have come up with
http://www.racekarts.com/images/stories ... _rules.pdf

Requiring the ARC Racing parts kit for $115 which is very reasonable for a muffler, chain guard, air filter w/adapter, fuel pump, etc... will help keep the cost down.
http://www.arcracing.com/servlet/the-14 ... rts/Detail
I already have this kit & it has a well built chain guard & parts for the cost, a bargain actually. The ARC built header & muffler kit, top plate, chain guard/heat shield & billet air filter adapter are all well made ARC Racing american made parts. The photo on his website doesn't do them justice.

The clutch is only $52!
http://www.arcracing.com/servlet/the-19 ... tch/Detail
Not sure what driver gear NTK will require but I have a 13, 14 & 15 to experiment with. I believe you can buy the driver gear separately from the clutch.

I think the Genie is already out of the bottle as far as the Chinese engine is concerned but the Pro is it can benefit the club by bringing in a lot of new racers. It is a lot easier to come up with $100 for an engine that has a 2 year warranty, and a $52 clutch than a Yamaha & a clutch.

Hopefully this will bring new racers to our sport. Some of them will want to move up to Yamaha & other classes but this is a great class to introduce racers to karting.

I think there is a reason why this is taking off in other parts of the country.

I guess it will just be an experiment at NTK for right now but one I can afford to play with.
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Re: Clone motors

Postby Yaani-Mai Gaddy » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:40 pm

First as George stated, any racer is going to be tempted to "look" inside and who has a tech sheet for these clone engines. I haven't seen one. This will make policing the class almost impossible.


As far as the people that like to mess with the engines? Be sure & read the claimer rule in the Katy rules. I really like that, I think a $160 claimer rule should put a stop to that.
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Re: Clone motors

Postby Mike Engstrom » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:56 pm

We've got same clutch for $45.00, headers and bracket for $35.00, and chain guard is $19.95. AKRA has the best set of rules from what I've seen. Like the claim rule as well, seems to work in other motorsports.
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Re: Clone motors

Postby Jim Franklin » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:35 pm

NEW CLONE CLASS RULE IDEA , $100.00 CLAIM IN THE TOP 4 MOTOR IF YOU ARE ON THE SAME LAP [ SEE IMCA DIRT MODIFIED CLAIM RULES ] , THIS IA QUICK & EASY WAY TO KEEP IT CHEAP , GO AHEAD & SPEND $1000.00 & LOOSE IT
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Re: Clone motors

Postby Yaani-Mai Gaddy » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:55 pm

Jim,

Yes we like the claimer rule. It should keep people from modifying the motors. Maybe $160 claim rule as that is what a new motor costs.

GCKI has a pretty good set of rules that we are looking at. They put everyone from age 12 in one class, there are restrictor plates for different weights and apparently all the racers are pretty evenly matched with the restrictors in place and they all race together & are all competitive using these rules.

http://www.racekarts.com/images/stories ... _rules.pdf

We need to do some testing before we set teh rules for NTK. My kart is put together & my Chonda engine is mounted. Right now I have a 15 tooth driver gear. I started the engine, it is kind of loud. I couldn't come out to test on Saturday because my husband had surgery a week ago & was not up to it or allowed to lift yet. We are waiting for our sons to come home over the holidays to help us with the kart.

Is the track open to members now?
Yaani-Mai Gaddy
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Re: Clone motors

Postby George Kraus » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:59 pm

Not me. I do all the TLC for a clamier motor to lose it out to someone who never changes the oil, never replaces the plug, or keeps the carb airfilter clean,or clears the carb after the race, or has a fuel filter. I just don't see it. I don't like a claimer rule.
Yanni might, but not me.
I twirl the wrenches.
Switchin valvesprings. grinding valves, cleaning up ports, polishing heads.
Low cost, labor intenst.
Do some work.
Old school.
Doctor say that I can go drive, check the bloodpressure and LET'S SEE.

Whoot!!!!!!!!!
George Kraus
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Re: Clone motors

Postby Yaani-Mai Gaddy » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:05 pm

George,

I understand the way you feel but you can take the money & buy a brand new one. I think that because the rule is in place it will prevent people from spending large amounts of money to modify & blueprint engines. I doubt we will have to use the rule. This is intended as a fun, affordable class so I think everyone will stay within the rules. If they want higher performance there are other classes they can go to.
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